Posts by Doug Mason

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

Doug Mason

Diogenesister,

That's interesting, because the NT writers quote extensively from 1 Enoch, Sirach, and Jubilees, at least.

I wonder how they rationalise the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible, or the canon of Codex Siniaticus, or the canon of the Orthodox Church.

Only the RCs have taken a vote on the list of books. They did that in the 16th century at the Council of Trent. Protestants have never taken a vote. They accept Tradition!

Martin Luther wanted some NT books removed from the Bible, including James and Revelation.

Some modern-day scholars would like to see the NT Canon revisited, especially that we now know that Paul was personally responsible for only 7 of the 13 epistles attributed to him: 1 Thess., 1 Cor., 2 Cor, Gal., Philippians, Philemon, Romans. The others were written decades after his death.

Doug

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

Doug Mason

TTWSYF,

You have no idea what Jesus actually said. He did not leave anything in writing.

You are only able to read what people wrote several decades later. And the words they put onto Jesus' lips were their own words to their own community.

Doug

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

Doug Mason

The Hebrew Scriptures and its Greek translation (the Septuagint -- LXX), as well as books such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, Sirach, etc., were the authoritative source for the "Jesus-follower" writers. Particularly as their foes - the Pharisees - accepted Tradition as being equal to the written word.

There is also no way that any of the NT writings is to be taken as literal history. None of it is a documentary in the sense that we understand. They were writing religious material, not documentary evidence. The Gospels and the Book of Acts are religious fictions, artfully crafted to manufacture religious outcomes and behaviours. The writings by Paul are simply his opinions -- not shared by all of his contemporaries.

Doug

4

Matthew 7:13-14 and Revelation 7:9.

by Sergey Antonov in

in matthew 7:13-14 says :“enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the gate and spacious the road that leads to destruction, and many go through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

and revelation 7: 9 says of the great multitude, " after this i saw, and look.

of all the nations and tribes, and nations, and languages, standing before the throne and the lamb, dressed in white clothes, there was a great crowd that no man could count; and in their hands was the palm branches.".

Doug Mason

Matthew was written by a community living in 85 CE. The writers were telling the members of their community of their expectations in the light of the pressures they were experiencing, particularly at the hands of the Pharisees. Those Pharisees accepted Tradition to be on a par with the written text but the "Matthew" group were very strictly aligned to the letter of the Biblical Law (not a jot or tittle, as the KJV used to say).

The Book of Revelation was composed by a very different group at a different time for a different purpose. It is a highly erotic symbolic flight of fancy. Clearly also very legalistic Jewish in its outlook. It is a compilation of material from the Jewish writings and I suspect that you will gain a far better insight by reading books such as 1 Enoch and Jubilees to determine whether you can locate the source of the particular passage in Revelation you are referring to.

I suspect that the only place where Matthew and Revelation can be compared is with the 5th Discourse, often termed "The Little Apocalypse" (Matt 23ff).

The passage at Matt 7 appears in the First Discourse formulated by the writers of Matthew.

Doug

PS. The words attributed to Jesus are actually the words of the writers placed on his lips.

12

Request for Australian research: ban on Jehovah's Witnesses in 1941

by JW83 in

i am planning on revisiting my (academic) research into the banning of jws in australia in 1941, and was wondering if anyone would have contacts i could interview?

this is obviously a long shot (and it may be children/grandchildren) but i thought it may be worth a shot!.

i am an ex-jw and academic historian, you can see my former published work on jws here: http://www.flinders.edu.au/sabs/shir/our-research/research-journals/fjhp/2008.cfm.

Doug Mason

Hi Jayne,

In the late 1970s I located a number of articles in "Smith's Weekly". I do not think that I have either the copies nor my summary of dates, but I will have a look.

These are at the State Library of Victoria. At that time, all we had were micro fiche, but you could search the Library Catalogue. Just poke SLV into your search engine.

I wish you well. My email address is:

doug_mason1940

@

yahoo

com

au

53

Bible comes alive if we look for meaning behind the symbols it uses

by Ireneus in

bible contains too much human thinking presented as though from god, thus much of its information brings dishonor to god.. yet it contains great beneficial truths behind the symbols it uses.

let us take the only two cases of miracles jesus performed without any request from anybody which would show the very purpose of his ministry:.

1) jesus healed a woman who “was bent over and could not straighten up at all.” (luke 13:11-13).

Doug Mason

Hi Irenaeus,

I am not asking about the legitimacy of "inscripturation" or on the accuracy of transmission and the corruption of the text.

I am asking which Canon? Of the variety of Canons - list of documents that make up a collection of Scriptures - exactly what do you mean when you say "The Bible"?

As just one example, do you accept 1 Enoch in "The Bible"? Several canons do, and it is fundamentally significant to the Protestant New Testament.

Doug

31

Jesus tempted by Satan, real or just a vision.

by pleaseresearch in

not with their shunning policy.

me and my brother seldom communicate sadly, but no way would we go anywhere for fear of being seen with an inactive jw for over 10 years.. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-simplified-march-2016/questions-from-readers/.

from the website:.

Doug Mason

The ancient Middle Eastern mind did not visualise "all the kingdoms of the world" in the same way that a 21st century mind does. The concepts are completely different.

Just one example of several: "your faith is being reported all over the world" (Romans 1:8, NIV).

For them, the expression "all the kingdoms of the world" related only to the kingdoms they were familiar with. They had no vision of the planet as from a space station, or from the moon

Doug

53

Bible comes alive if we look for meaning behind the symbols it uses

by Ireneus in

bible contains too much human thinking presented as though from god, thus much of its information brings dishonor to god.. yet it contains great beneficial truths behind the symbols it uses.

let us take the only two cases of miracles jesus performed without any request from anybody which would show the very purpose of his ministry:.

1) jesus healed a woman who “was bent over and could not straighten up at all.” (luke 13:11-13).

Doug Mason

Irenaeus,

When you say "Bible", which Canon do you mean?

Doug

31

Jesus tempted by Satan, real or just a vision.

by pleaseresearch in

not with their shunning policy.

me and my brother seldom communicate sadly, but no way would we go anywhere for fear of being seen with an inactive jw for over 10 years.. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-simplified-march-2016/questions-from-readers/.

from the website:.

Doug Mason

The "Satan" of Job is not the "Satanas" of the New Testament. The individual in Job is a "son of God" carrying out activities under Yahweh's permission.

The purpose of the Book of Job was to create an explanation for the sorry state of "God's people", laying the blame away from Yahweh. Their very recent (6th century BCE) experiences coupled with their very recent surge of Monotheism created the issue of Theodicy, which the Book of Job addresses in the concepts of their day.

I suspect it is likely there is a soteriological intent with the story of Satan's temptation of Christ. I will research further but my initial thoughts include:

The intention of the writers (40 to 60 years after the setting of the story) might simply be wanting to show the authority of their ancient written documents.

Secondly, they might be saying that if you are tempted in these ways, this is how you are to respond.

I am probably way off the mark, but it is at least a starting point.

In other words, rather than asking only what did they write, I want to know why they wrote.

If someone offered you the world (winning the lottery; becoming POTUS; etc.) how would you respond? Is that what these writers were posing? And then setting up Christ as the model respondent.

Just assuming at this stage.

Doug

31

Jesus tempted by Satan, real or just a vision.

by pleaseresearch in

not with their shunning policy.

me and my brother seldom communicate sadly, but no way would we go anywhere for fear of being seen with an inactive jw for over 10 years.. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-simplified-march-2016/questions-from-readers/.

from the website:.

Doug Mason

Am I correct in thinking that it was "holy spirit" who/that drove Jesus into the wilderness so that Jesus would be tempted?

If that were so, then the satan was simply carrying out a "holy" mission.

Why did these people write these stories? What was their objective at the time they wrote these?

How does the nature of the early account (Mark) compare with the stories as they were developed over time (Matthew -> John -> Luke)?

Doug